Work 2.0: Rebel with a Cause

Editor's note, December 6, 2024: Since we first published this episode with Francesca Gino in 2018, other researchers have raised concerns about the integrity of her work. In 2023, a group of scientists publicly alleged that she had fabricated data in some of her studies. You can find more information about their analysis at Data Colada.org.

Gino has denied these allegations.

A number of Francesca Gino’s studies have been retracted by the journals that published them, including a study about karaoke that is referenced in this episode.

Francesca Gino studies rebels - people who practice "positive deviance" and achieve incredible feats of imagination. They know how and when to break rules that should be broken. So how can you activate your own inner non-conformist? This week, we ponder the traits of successful rebels as we revisit our 2018 conversation with Francesca.

If you like this show, please check out our new podcast, My Unsung Hero! And if you'd like to support our work, you can do so at support.hiddenbrain.org.

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You 2.0: Rebel With A Cause

/ August 19, 2019

Editor’s Note, December 6, 2024:*** Since we first published this episode with Francesca Gino in 2018, other researchers have raised concerns about the integrity of her work. In 2023, a group of scientists ******publicly alleged****** that she had fabricated data in some of her studies. You can find more information about their analysis at ******Data Colada.org******. ***

Gino has denied these allegations.

A number of Francesca Gino’s studies have been retracted by the journals that published them, including a study about karaoke that is referenced in this episode.

Francesca Gino studies rebels – people who practice “positive deviance” and achieve incredible feats of imagination. They know how and when to break rules that should be broken. So how can you activate your own inner non-conformist? This week, we ponder the traits of successful rebels as we revisit our 2018 conversation with Francesca.

If you like this show, please check out our new podcast, ! And if you’d like to support our work, you can do so at .

Transcript

*The transcript below may be for an earlier version of this episode.
Our transcripts are provided by various partners and may contain errors or deviate slightly from the audio.*

SHANKAR VEDANTAM, HOST: This is HIDDEN BRAIN. I'm Shankar Vedantam.(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)VEDANTAM: Every day, listeners reach out to us, asking for research that would help them solve the problems we all face in life. Last summer, we decided to put out a series that would speak to these concerns, highlighting stories about the decisions we make from the mundane to the momentous. Recall the series - You 2.0. And it was so popular, we decided to bring it back this year. It's six weeks of advice about things like jobs...AMY WRZESNIEWSKI: People for whom the work is a calling tend to be better performers and be far more deeply engaged in it regardless of what the work is.VEDANTAM: ...Relationships...(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)ELI FINKEL: We look to our partners to be our sculptors, to help us until we actually grow toward the best, ideal version of ourselves.VEDANTAM: ...And behavior that we all struggle to change. We'll kick the series off today in a bookstore.(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)VEDANTAM: A few years ago, social scientist Francesca Gino was browsing the shelves when she came across an unusual-looking book in the cooking section.FRANCESCA GINO: This recipe book that looked a little bit different. And the title said "Never Trust A Skinny Italian Chef."VEDANTAM: (Laughter).GINO: And being Italian, it was very intrigued. And as I flipped through the pages, it became clear that this was not your typical recipe book.(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)VEDANTAM: The dishes were playful, quirky, improbable. Snails were paired with coffee sauce, veal tongue with charcoal powder. The recipes had titles like how to burn a sardine.GINO: And, oops, I dropped the lemon tart. There were pictures of beautiful dishes. Who could resist a dish called the crunchy part of the lasagna? Now, if you know anything about Italians, first of all, we have lots of rules when it comes to cooking. And second, we really cherish our traditional dishes, especially because they've been passed on for generations.VEDANTAM: But this chef, one of the most successful in the world, couldn't resist circling back to one big existential question.GINO: Why is it that we cook the dish in this way?(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)VEDANTAM: Why is it that we cook the dish in this way? It's the kind of question Francesca loved. As a professor at Harvard Business School, she has spent most of her career studying nonconformists - specifically, people who break the rules and end up in trouble. But now, standing at the bookstore, she wondered, when can defying norms lead to innovation? Can letting go of tradition lead to the most sublime examples of creative thinking? To find out, she got in touch with the man behind the cookbook, the so-called Jimi Hendrix of Italian cooking, Massimo Bottura.GINO: After a few conversation, he said, look; if you really want to understand the business, you've got to come to Modena. And I was like, of course.VEDANTAM: (Laughter).GINO: Why say no to an invitation to a three-Michelin-star restaurant? I'm on my way.(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)VEDANTAM: This week, we'll follow Francesca on her mission to understand the minds of successful nonconformists. Her book about this quest is called "Rebel Talent: Why It Pays To Break The Rules At Work And In Life."GINO: I think we really need to shift our thinking. Rebels are not troublemakers. They're not outcasts. Rebels are people who break rules that should be broken. They break rules that hold them and others back, and their way of rule-breaking is constructive rather than destructive. It creates positive change.VEDANTAM: How to be a rebel - this week on HIDDEN BRAIN.(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)GINO: So I showed up at the restaurant for my first day with my notebook and basically was given an apron. For the entire day, I was put to work in the front of the house as a server. And again, it was an amazing experience because I had no qualification. I clearly didn't know what I was doing. I made a lot of mistakes. But that was just an example of doing things a little bit differently.VEDANTAM: So, of course, if you're a smart chef, the one thing you don't do is bring an amateur into your three-Michelin-star restaurant and ask her to start serving the dishes. I can just imagine all the ways that that could go wrong. Did it?GINO: That is exactly what was going through my head as I was making mistakes from putting the very carefully arranged dishes down onto the table. There are very specific ways in which the dish gets arranged so that you get the right anticipation of what the dish is going to be about as you eat it. And throughout the day, the team members who were working with me in the front of the house were just helping me. And when I was making mistakes, they were very subtly trying to correct, so they were adjusting the plate, or if I brought to a table the wrong utensils, they would show up...(LAUGHTER)GINO: ...And somehow bring another set that was the right set for the type of dish that was being served.VEDANTAM: So I understand that if I were to visit the restaurant, I might sometimes see Massimo Bottura outside, unloading produce from the trucks or sweeping the pavement. He doesn't seem like someone who stands on airs.GINO: He's very much into the trenches. One of the first thing that he does when he shows up at the restaurant in the morning is to put his white chef's coat on, and then he does go outside with a broom and sweep the streets. And you're there looking at him, and the sous chef and the people working in the restaurants are there looking at him, and you ask the question, why is it that he's doing that? But the second question that you ask yourself is, why is it that I'm not doing it? And so you're feeling motivated to take on roles and activities that are roles that are not scripted because of where you sit or where you work in the restaurant. It's very refreshing.VEDANTAM: And, of course, he actually tries to bring this approach to the food that he's making, as well. I want you to listen to this clip of music because you say the chef actually asked his staff to build a dish based on this song.(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WALK ON THE WILD SIDE")LOU REED: (Singing) Holly came from Miami, Fla., hitchhiked her way across the USA, plucked her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs and then he was a she. She says, hey, babe, take a walk on the wild side. Said, hey, honey, take a walk on the wild side.VEDANTAM: So what was going on, Francesca? How do you make a dish based on a song?GINO: It was a one of the many ways that Massimo Bottura inspires the

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